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#30937 When will V4.2 really be released and working?

Posted by rhamer on 20 June 2012 - 09:32 AM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

I'm sorry Arbiter, but your last 2 posts are just wrong. To say that those 3 problems are not show stoppers, is unbelievable. Do you honestly expect me to continue to have to carefully navigate my mouse pointer around the VS GUI ensuring I don't cross over a killer variable that instantly shuts down VS. this then usually leads to an episode of failed deployment, where I have to be very careful what order I try to resolve it, because I get a BSOD. At the very best I'm rebooting and manually erasing my netduino, after I have removed it from its motherboard. If you think those problems are ok to live with, then you have a more understanding boss than me. As for the price point, what has that got to do with it? I didn't choose the netduino because it was cheap, I will happily pay more if the issues get fixed. I chose it because I believed Microsoft and others when they spruced it's capabilities. Added to this, v4.2 was in beta and now supported VB which was even better. Add Ethernet capability of the Plus and it was a no brainier. But all this was October last year, no way I thought it would take this long to get it to release quality, and we still have a long way to go. I really don't want to turn this into an argument, and it seems that I'm the only one complaining, so I think I'll just have to give up. Chris, I appreciate your efforts, but a year in beta is just going to be too much, and I don't get the positive feeling that Microsoft are devoting any real effort to fixing the issues. I think I will still be in the same position in 6 months time, wishing I had moved on months earlier. I really wanted to use the worlds best IDE for my embedded needs, but it's back to my own hardware and compiler. Regards Rohan



#30921 When will V4.2 really be released and working?

Posted by rhamer on 19 June 2012 - 11:46 PM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

Here's a template I knocked up per my earlier description. Give it a whirl and tell me what you think. Couple of key points:

  • You only get the kill switch in debug builds. In release builds no handler is attached to the SW1 so it functions as a reset switch.
  • In debug builds the watchdog doesn't reboot, it fires an OnStall event which gives you a chance to find out what stalled.
  • You have to explicitly register methods for the co-op manager. I had intended to use custom attributes to mark up methods with their intervals and implicitly register them, but NETMF doesn't do custom attributes. The template produces two sample co-op methods to illustrate registration and the required method signature.
  • If a co-op task runs for more than a minute the watchdog detects it as stalled.
  • Coop mult-tasking only ever runs one logical process at a time so it is effectively single threaded.
  • This is an application watchdog.

An application watchdog operates at a different level of abstraction to the framework watchdog already present. If you wrote this:
static void Main() { Thread.Sleep(Timeout.Infinite); }
the built-in watchdog would not detect it because the NETMF framework has not locked up.


Thanks for your effort Arbiter, I will try it out as soon as I can and let you know how I go.

Regards

Rohan



#30920 When will V4.2 really be released and working?

Posted by rhamer on 19 June 2012 - 11:40 PM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

Hi Rohan,


So sorry that you're having issues with .NET MF 4.2 and the beta firmware. :(

The reason we haven't taken the firmware out of beta is because .NET MF 4.2 hasn't met our quality criteria yet. The one outstanding issue is the blue screens with the proprietary NETMF driver.

We have been working with Microsoft on the issue since summer 2010. It was actually an issue with .NET MF 4.1, but we created a workaround which fixed the issue most of the time. This workaround no longer works with the changes made in .NET MF 4.2, so both Secret Labs and Microsoft have been doing extensive repro cases to determine the root cause.

After much effort, it was determined that there the issues are driver-related and specific to certain computer+software configurations, and that they seem to affect all .NET MF 4.2-based firmware images using USB to some extent.

So Microsoft is working hard on a new, permanent resolution to the issue. They're replacing the proprietary NETMF drivers with standard WinUSB drivers. WinUSB is a much better solution because it's built into Windows and therefore well-tested across a wide number of devices and computers.

The new WinUSB support is scheduled to be available by mid-July in beta form, and sometime this summer in the QFE2 patch to .NET MF 4.2.

Full details:
http://netmf.codeple...m/workitem/1049

Once the community reports that the QFE2-based WinUSB drivers have fixed the BSOD glitches in relation to .NET MF 4.2, we'll move the Netduino firmware rapidly to RTM.

BTW, we implemented some hardware tweaks in the Netduino Go hardware to reduce the BSOD occurances to .NET MF 4.1 levels (which is why we were able to ship it with .NET MF 4.2 support). We're still not happy with the occurance of any driver crashes, so we're really looking forward to transitioning the full line of USB-capable Netduinos to WinUSB.

Thank you for your patience while Microsoft finishes up their work on the new drivers. So sorry for any pain you are encountering on your computer in relation to .NET MF 4.2 and the beta firmware. We're listening, and many people are working hard behind the scenes to make .NET MF 4.2 a strong platform with RTM firmware.

Chris

P.S.
If you want to switch your Netduino to serial debug/deploy, you can use D0/D1 or D2/D3 and a USB TTL adapter with the 4.2 firmware. You could also use an RS232 shield. This will allow you to write code without any possibility of driver-related BSODs.


Hi Chris,

I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think you really understand the scale of these problems. To be blunt, commercial development against V4.2 is unworkable.

Add to this the annoyance I have when I see talk about other products being designed such as the GO when there are existing products that simply dont work. In my view, any and all available effort should be focused on sorting out the existing issues, rather than new products. All you are going to end up with is a bunch of products that half work, rather than a couple that are really good. i.e exactly how it is now.

There are at least 3 show stopping problems with V4.2 right now.

1/ BSOD
2/ Deployment Fails
3/ VS2010 crashes when hovering over a variable during debugging.

There are probably more, but I cant get past these to see any further.

I know in past posts you have pointed to various problems falling into various camps, but to me I don't care, I just want it fixed. It feels like I'm constantly being told it's not my problem, thats some other guys issue. I dont know what parts fall into who's area and I don't want to. I just want it to work.

I realise I'm being a bit grumpy about this, but you have to realise I'm not in this for the journey, I need to get to the destination as quickly as possible, and that is the suposed main spruking point of .NET MF. I need to use it as part of a robust reliable commercial product, and not some pet egg timer project.

To give you some idea, I have the whole product designed, and prototypes built. In the attached photo of an early prototype you can see that the Netduino is only a small (but significant) part of the project. If I have to scrap it and move to something else, it will be a major setback, but I equally can't continue on this way.

Please can you provide a proper realistic list of known issues and when they will be fixed, with a commitment to sorting out the issues with existing products, before using resources for new development.

BTW I cant use serial for deployment, as I'm using both serial ports as part of the project.

Regards

Rohan

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_0213.jpg



#30817 When will V4.2 really be released and working?

Posted by rhamer on 18 June 2012 - 03:18 AM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

... As for a way to reliably trigger a deployment hang this seems to work for me on any PC (win7 x64) i try it on.

  • Deploy code first time no problem
  • Deploy code n times no problem
  • Stop debugging and restart (either through a reset or power cycle) the ND and let the program run i.e. debug build running in a more production like context
  • Try and redeploy/attach debugger, deploy hangs reseting or unplugging ND causes a BSOD (windbg analysis says either memory corruption or vista driver error) waiting about 5 mins raises a deployment error dialog in vs...
If other people can hang their deployment that way at least that will be a step towards getting a fix for this issue, as AFAIK its the reproducibility of the issue that is the sticking point on this issue...

Nak.


That is pretty much the trigger for me as well.

Going on what others have said here, it appears to be when the program is executing on it's own you cant break into it to deploy another.

something else I have also seen is, it sort of half deploys before failing and leaves the Netduino no longer able to receive a new deployment, or even free run the old one, even with the USB disconnected and power cycled.

I have seen this because my project has an LCD screen for output and during the program init it writes a few lines of stuff. When it gets half updated, I only get some of the text on the screen, and the netduino just appears to freeze, even ignoring the reset button sometimes.

Regards

Rohan



#30711 Deploy and Debug via Ethernet, is it possible?

Posted by rhamer on 15 June 2012 - 03:35 AM in Netduino Plus 2 (and Netduino Plus 1)

I am wondering if it is possible to deploy and debug via the ethernet port rather than the USB? It appears from what I have read it is possible on some other manufacturers boards. Regards Rohan



#30704 Hints, Tips and Workarounds for Deployment Problems

Posted by rhamer on 15 June 2012 - 12:14 AM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

I have started this thread as a place to gather any wisdom regarding the dreaded deployment problems plaguing the Netduino. These problems are extremely frustrating, and so any ideas would be greatly appreciated. So, if you have discovered a way of bringing your Netduino back to life, or even better, stopping the problem all together, then please share it here. For the record I have tried typing "plugh" and "xyzzy" to no avail (one for the old timers) :-) My particular problems are the BSOD and failing to deploy. so far the only guaranteed solution is to do the following; 1 Cancel the deployment. 2 Unplug the USB. 3 Power down the project (my Netduino is a mounted as a sub board to a larger PCB that also powers it) 4 run mfdeploy 5 plug in USB 6 erase current programming (this is a few steps in mfdeploy) 7 if still not working, shutdown VS2010 (sometimes this gives BSOD) 8 if still not working reboot PC. Regards Rohan



#30703 When will V4.2 really be released and working?

Posted by rhamer on 14 June 2012 - 11:18 PM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

Well I feel a little better now that I have found some brothers that understand my pain. I really dont want to move away from the Netduino, but given these issues are obviously not just with my environment, I don't hold out much of a chance of me being able to fix them. I am however interested in the various solution that have been offered up, and perhaps between us we can figure out the magic formula to type, chant, drink or whatever actually works. Hell I'll even turn my whole desk to face east if that proves to be the key. I am going to start another thread where we can all share out little tips and tricks on solving the deployment issues we are all having. However I don't want this thread to end, I really want an answer from Secret Labs to my initial question, and some sort of acknowledgement that these problems are not just annoyances, they are show stoppingly huge and what is being done about them for real. Regards Rohan



#30679 When will V4.2 really be released and working?

Posted by rhamer on 14 June 2012 - 10:44 AM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

I know this is a loaded question, but is there really any actual date defined for the release of V4.2? I am having so much trouble with the current Beta, that I just cant imagine it being any time this year. Unfortunately I have only a few weeks left to finish my product, and I just can't afford the time I waste every day with deployment issues. it may be ok for a hobbiest, but for a comercial application like mine, it is costing far too much in lost time. I chose the Netduino against the wishes of my superiors, because I can see that it will be a fantastic platform one day. But right now I think I'll be retiring before I see that happen. Today I kept a record, and over 4 hours was wasted over the course of a day with deployment issues, that would constantly stop me in my tracks. I don't know what it is that triggers them, nor do I know the magic formula for getting it going again, but it involves everything up to and including rebooting the PC and manually erasing the Netduino. I just can't wait any longer, and I'm going to have to find another solution. My only hope is a positive response to this post, and a new much more stable version within a week. So what are the chances? Regards Rohan



#30651 Error Deploying Solution

Posted by rhamer on 14 June 2012 - 01:03 AM in Netduino Plus 2 (and Netduino Plus 1)

I just had this same problem, and the posted solution also fixed it for me. Is this likely to be a beta issue? Regards Rohan



#30561 Event handlers sample

Posted by rhamer on 12 June 2012 - 12:17 AM in Visual Basic Support

Yes you were spot on, the event handler definition was in a thread that was going out of scope. It seems to be working ok now. Thanks for your help. Regards Rohan



#30410 VS2010 Crash on debug

Posted by rhamer on 08 June 2012 - 06:40 AM in Visual Basic Support

Still nothing? No comment, no timeframe?



#30409 Event handlers sample

Posted by rhamer on 08 June 2012 - 06:30 AM in Visual Basic Support

Has anybody come accross a problem where the events stop firing? I have an application that has an event tied to an input and after a while it stops firing. The way the event handler is written is exactly as shown in the example above, and it works properly for the first 10 or so pin level changes, then suddenly just stops firing. I have tried the sample program above, and the problem does not happen, so it is difficult for me to identify exactly what is the problem. Stripping down the application is not an easy task as it is quite a big complex application, and the latest thing added was the use of the events to monitor one of the digital inputs, which is actually driven by the interrupt pin of a MCP23017 port expander. When this problem occurs, the rest of the application keeps running fine, the event handler just never gets called. If I run a poll timer in the background that manually calles the same event handler after a few minutes, then all the code inside it runs correctly. I have also used a logic analyser to monitor the state of the pin, and it is actually being pulled low by the MCP23017 as it should. Regards Rohan



#29561 VS2010 Crash on debug

Posted by rhamer on 23 May 2012 - 03:06 AM in Visual Basic Support

Yep that's exactly what happens for me. If the declaration is in the same file it is fine, but if it is in another file, then crash every time. I don't know about c# as I don't use it. Regards Rohan



#29549 VS2010 Crash on debug

Posted by rhamer on 22 May 2012 - 09:50 PM in Visual Basic Support

That was the first thing I did. I am running all the latest versions of everything. BTW the reason I'm so concerned about this, is I am trying to produce a commercial product with the Netduino as the controller, and time is tight. I don't have the luxury of being able to forget about it for a year and come back when it all has been fixed. Regards Rohan



#29425 VS2010 Crash on debug

Posted by rhamer on 20 May 2012 - 04:32 AM in Visual Basic Support

Does anybody official have anything to say about this problem? Has it been recognised and is a fix being worked on? It seem like everytime I post here about a problem, it falls on deaf ears. Once again I would have thought a bug this big would have generated some sort of response..... I really want to be a Netduino evangalist, but stuff like this just makes it hard to keep the faith. Regards Rohan



#28991 VS2010 Crash on debug

Posted by rhamer on 14 May 2012 - 05:30 AM in Visual Basic Support

I was hoping I had a solution when I saw the new signed drivers. However after installing them, it makes no difference. If I set a breakpoint, then hover over a variable to read its value, instant crash, every time. This is unuseable. Regards Rohan



#28989 VS2010 Crash on debug

Posted by rhamer on 14 May 2012 - 05:11 AM in Visual Basic Support

I have had this problem for some time now. The problem occurs with 4.2 RC 3,4 & 5 and is making development unworkable. Is there any known solution for this? I was hoping RC5 would fix it, but to no avail. My system is W7 x64, VS2010 and I'm using VB Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards Rohan



#25443 Netduino Firmware v4.2.0 RC4 (Netduino + Netduino Plus)

Posted by rhamer on 13 March 2012 - 03:18 AM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reply. I really dont want to be one of those whinging types.

The I2C bus is here http://forums.netdui...h__1#entry22811

I dont know about the beta drivers, I don't think so as I'm not sure where they fit into the environment. I just followed the instructions posted by another user and it didn't include anything for the IDE/PC end. What exactly are they for and how do I use them?

One more thing with regard to the I2C classes, is the inability to connect to more than 1 device. There seems to be some home brew classes to get around this, but nothing with clear instructions on how to use them. I see this as a huge deficiency in the I2C routines as the whole point is I2C is a bus. Having said that, if there is an official workaround (for VB) that you recommend I would be happy to use it.

BTW just so you know, the project I'm working on is a commercial application that will need 15 NetDuino Plus' to control various pieces of hardware, but it also needs to be rock solid. I hope things can be turned around soon as I only have a few more days before I will have to decide to stick with the ND or look somewhere else.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards

Rohan



#25428 Netduino Firmware v4.2.0 RC4 (Netduino + Netduino Plus)

Posted by rhamer on 12 March 2012 - 10:45 PM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

Target for the next beta is 2-3 weeks from today. There will be a lot of updated code pulled into it.

Chris


Is any of it in the I2C area?

Unfortunately I am very close to having to abandon the Netduino Plus as the essential things I need (I2C & VB) are just not working properly yet.

Add to that the constant IDE crashes and the occasional Blue Screen when pressing the Netduino reset button during a download and I'm not making any progress at all, while my deadline grows nearer.

I really don't want to sound like a complainer, and I know this is only Beta firmware, but it has been in Beta for a while, and I cant see the roadmap or timeframe. is there one?

Regards

Rohan



#24878 Multiple i2C Devices with VB

Posted by rhamer on 29 February 2012 - 10:49 PM in Visual Basic Support

Could either of you guys post some code with the LoveElectronics DLL as compiled by BainesBunch. I'm having a brain fade and cant get the syntax right. So far I have added a reference to the DLL, Imported LoveElectronics.Resources, but cant seem to get any further. Cheers Rohan



#23375 Are there timers on the Netduino Plus?

Posted by rhamer on 27 January 2012 - 09:36 PM in Netduino Plus 2 (and Netduino Plus 1)

Hi,

Yes.

Here's a reference: http://wiki.tinyclr....le=SystemTimers

Dan


Thanks Dan, I'll take a look.

Cheers

Rohan



#23270 Are there timers on the Netduino Plus?

Posted by rhamer on 25 January 2012 - 04:10 AM in Netduino Plus 2 (and Netduino Plus 1)

What I mean is, are there timers that I can set an interval for, enable or disable, and have an event fire (and handled through an event handler) when the timer expires? Exactly like a timer gadget in the grown up .net If so can someone point me to an example. Regards Rohan



#23269 Bug in system.net.sockets

Posted by rhamer on 25 January 2012 - 04:05 AM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

Further to my example above, I can confirm the following code example does not have the problem.

    Public Function SendDataArray(Data() As Byte) As Boolean

        Dim ret As Boolean

        Try
            clientSocket.Send(Data)
            ret = True
        Catch ex As Exception
            ret = False
        End Try

        Return ret

    End Function

The difference here is I'm passing a byte array into the method (instead of just a byte) which should make no difference at all, except the array contains more than 1 byte.

I can repeatedly call this method with no exceptions being generated.

Regards

Rohan



#23264 Bug in system.net.sockets

Posted by rhamer on 25 January 2012 - 01:56 AM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

Just to clarify, you are sending a single byte with each call of "clientSocket.Send" ?

-Valkyrie-MT


Yes that is correct.

Regards

Rohan



#23256 Bug in system.net.sockets

Posted by rhamer on 24 January 2012 - 10:28 PM in Beta Firmware and Drivers

I have just encountered some strange behaviour with the socket.send() method in V4.2

using the following code, I get an exception thrown on every ninth byte.

    Public Function SendData(Data As Byte) As Boolean

        Dim ret As Boolean
        Dim DataByteArray() = {Data}

        Try
            clientSocket.Send(DataByteArray)
            ret = True
        Catch ex As Exception
            ret = False
        End Try

        Return ret

    End Function

This happens reliably every time.

The other odd thing is when I look at the data using wireshark, the data in the packets is always as follows.

1 data byte
7 data bytes
(exception thrown byte never sent)
1 data byte
7 data bytes
(exception thrown byte never sent)

this pattern continues until there is no more data to send.

If I catch the false return from the above method and just call the method again with the same byte, it works, so it is not the contents of the byte that is the problem (it is also different with every ninth byte not being the same data anyway)

Recalling the same method after an exception fixes the problem in as much as the byte is eventually sent, but it slows down the execution dramatically as you can imagine, and is not an acceptable workaround.

Can anybody think of something I might be doing wrong?

Regards

Rohan




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