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I apologize to Bill E. for copying his thread title, but I thought it described my situation perfectly...
Allow me to introduce myself:
I'm very interessted in electronics and computer science, and most of all what I can acheive at home using both. I'm hooked on home automation using HomeSeer and various protocols such as the old X10 protocol and RFXCOM for Nexa/HomeEasy/OregonScientific/etc.
I have a reasonable good handle on programming with VB.net and to some degree also C#.
However, I don't know much about electronics. But I'm very interessted to learn, and that's why I've looked into the Netduino. I have a Netduino on its way and I'm looking forward to start tinker with it. I've also start reading the "Netduino and Internet of Things" book and I'm looking forward for the "Getting Started with Netduino" book to be released.
I have a few ideas for hardware that I want to build (and program) and I'd like all the help and pointers I can get to make sure I'm on the right track:
1. Sleep Tracker
I want to hook up a accelerometer to a Netduino and let it track the vibrations from the bed for sleep analysis. I currently use my Android phone for this, but I want to avoid that if I can.
I've bought a tri-axis accelerometer ("Triple Axis Accelerometer Breakout - MMA7361") from Sparkfun and the idea is to just log the vibrations and let a PC analyse the results afterwards. But I don't even know how I connect the accelerometer to the Netduino...
2. Position Finder
Using some kind of wireless technology ("XBee" turns up whenever I search) I want to utilize three or more transmitter that sends a signal and then use the signal strength to determine a receivers distance to each transmitter. That data can then again be used to find a position if the trasmitter's locations are known.
I've seen Arduino projects where it is possible to estimate the distance betwen two XBees. But yet again I don't even know where to start. And I don't know which XBees to get.
3. A window blind motor
Hook up a motor/servo to a Netduino and hopefully have it respond to X10 or Nexa/HomeEasy commands over 433 MHz. I realize that this might be waaay out of my leage, but a man can dream....
4. Expanding
I want to add LCD-screens, LEDs, buttons and so on. Everything that's cool...
I know that this is already over my head. But is it possible?
Is there some recommended place to start and learn more about electronics?
I believe in a "learn by doing" approach, but where can I learn the basics?
Moskus,
I actually did a double AND triple take on your posting title!! I had to laugh when I realized that I didn't get my title backwards!!
Welcome to the world of "not just using stuff but making stuff as well". I am a professional Engineer (Electronic) and am fascinated every day by the really cool stuff out there today.
A general comment on your dreams: I think you are biting off too much too early. The Netduino, or any C# capable device for that matter, is, in my opinion, not an entry-level approach.
Have you thought about a more gentler way to get into the fight? Perhaps an Arduino or a Chipino? Sparkfun also has the T.I. "Launch" for $6 (which I bought). Learning about "interfacing" a microcontroller to the outside world is so much more easy and achievable (I believe) to grasp from the 8-bit C, or BASIC, realm. I have worked with the PIC family of microcontrollers for many years using PIC C compilers, PIC BASIC, even, ugghhh, assembly language. I do not consider myself to be the "master" by any means but I have not yet found a hardware challenge (within means, of course) that I couldn't solve with a PIC. Your X-10 stuff is a perfect example. The 3-axis analog output accelerometer is another.
Don't let me disuade you! If you think you are ready then "get 'er done..." There are so many wonderful people (and some not so wonderful sadly) that are more than willing to help. I hope you have nothing but success.
Regards.
A general comment on your dreams: I think you are biting off too much too early. The Netduino, or any C# capable device for that matter, is, in my opinion, not an entry-level approach.
The main thought was to at least have SOMETHING familiar when I'm entering a complete new world backwards and screaming.
The idea of learning a new programming language at the same time as I'm trying to grasp the basic principles of electronics was somewhat off putting. To be able to just program like I'm already used to seemed like a good idea.
Have you thought about a more gentler way to get into the fight? Perhaps an Arduino or a Chipino? Sparkfun also has the T.I. "Launch" for $6 (which I bought).
I though the whole idea behind the Netduino was that it's almost the same as the Arduino, but you can take advante of the .NET Micro framework? Many of the Arduino shields supposedly work with the Netduino.
The "Launch" seems cool. I will have to look into that too.
Learning about "interfacing" a microcontroller to the outside world is so much more easy and achievable (I believe) to grasp from the 8-bit C, or BASIC, realm.
Perhaps you're right. I will have to read up on this. But the main thing I liked about the Netduino is that I already know how to write for it, it's basically just a matter of WHAT to open and when, but I guess that goes for all the languages.
I believe I will be able to program the Netduino "just fine" (hopefully ), but the main problem is that at the moment I don't know how to connect it to anything...
I repeat what I have posted two day ago. I know: I am tedious!
Any EE, after learn physics and circuits, must learn the programming basic. There are EE branches that are specialized on programming.
If you are using assembler, how can you ignore how the hardware struct is made?
Are you a very good programmer? Do you think to know every corner of your PC? So, what's the difference between static and dynamic RAM?
I really wonder why a programmer never asks for some source (book, web, tutorial, etc) to learn the electronic basis, so that he/she will "walk by him/herself".
I am *REALLY* happy to teach something to who does not know, and share everything I can of my knowledge about circuitry, but...why discourage?
Electronics and physics (at hobby level) are much easier to learn than programming. Programming always evolves; no language is actually forever; the machines are becoming obsolete just after one year...so, learn, learn, and learn again...
Physics and electronics are stable and defined forever. None will change them, none can rule differently, and...they are totally FREE!
So...instead suggesting someone to choose an "attractive" low-cost platform, I would suggest to choose a well-known basis, where to find lot of resources, tutorial, components, etc.
The world around Arduino is plenty of shields, that comes very simple to connect. Netduino is more complex but offers the benefit of a managed language. I really guess that our efforts should go toward the better integration of the hardware with the software.
Does anyone want to walk the longest, and darkest road?
Biggest fault of Netduino? It runs by electricity.
I really wonder why a programmer never asks for some source (book, web, tutorial, etc) to learn the electronic basis, so that he/she will "walk by him/herself".
I am *REALLY* happy to teach something to who does not know, and share everything I can of my knowledge about circuitry, but...why discourage?
WHOA! There is such a book????
I'm asking! I may have neglected to ask on this forum, but I have asked many of my EE friends and family. I can’t blame them they design CPU’s for HP so thinking with less a billion transistors is no longer an ability of theirs. Without exception, they have all pointed me to EE 101 type books that are theoretical based. I think I need something more technician based.
So if there is a book that could teach me how to create the trivial stuff you all take for granted like pull-up, pull-down, current limiting, how to use op-amps, voltage regulators, diodes, resistors, transistors… doing simple (~ less than 20 component) digital circuits… I would be eternally grateful!!!!!!
Doing my best to keep the smoke in the little black boxes. If my message helped you... how 'bout giving me a www.MessingWithReality.com
Allow me to introduce myself:
...
I have a reasonable good handle on programming with VB.net and to some degree also C#.
Welcome!
I saw your post yesterday and was going to respond, but I knew there were far more qualified members… I FEEL YOUR PAIN… Daily.
Sleep Tracker – Many of the SparkFun pages have references to tutorials. It just so happens the accelerometer you picked didn’t. But this one did… 3-axis accelerometer
Typically under the Documents section, they will have a tutorial…
I don’t know… but you might find the pin-out to be similar to what you have. And although, it’s taught to go to an Arduino, the pins on the Netduino are pin compatible so the wiring should be the same on that side. Although, the software samples are C++ and the objects are different, I suspect that you’re probably more comfortable with the code side (like me) once you have the wires in place.
Window Blind – If I understand your needs, you’ll want to know where the blind is as its moving. There are many ways… you could use a stepper motor so you know exactly how many rotations to lift the blind. I’ve gotten, but haven't used yet…
...for that purpose. There is a tutorial on the stepper motor driver page. Another alternative might be since the roll up blinds might not roll up with same number of turns every time. I know in the real world they seem to roll up tighter some times than others. You might use a motor and motor driver and then use a reed switch/ magnet or optical sensor to detect when it’s up and/or down. I'm kind of partial to the optical sensor! Its way cool what it can do.
I haven’t messed with RF yet, so, I’ll pass to others…
Otherwise, have fun, ask questions when you get to more specific issues.
As a starter book, I may suggest this one:
http://www.amazon.co...14549821&sr=8-4
the intro looks really nice (although I cannot see the actual content). The users review is highly starred as well.
If you have friends knowing electronics, there's no doubt about asking them.
I personally think that a too theoretical, and/or a too practical books are both wrong for an hobbist.
You should learn a bit of physics first. It's important to know that the current are electrons moving, but it's secondary knowing HOW they are moving.
Also, it's useful to know the basics principle of a transistor, although you don't need HOW is realized and the physics behind it. When you know how a transistor works, you'll never ask for the resistors value!...OK, maybe *almost* never...
For the modern logic chips is more important to know how the mosfet is working.
Nowadays there's no vacuum tubes anymore: the last one was the CRT. I never used them, because I am "too young" , but it's also very interesting to see how an old diode (tube) is working. Its principle opens a lot the mind about the circuits.
The same approach I would suggest if someone will ask me about programming.
It was my mistake/limitation to start the professional programming *WITHOUT* learning the theory. I must admit that the OOP, the good-practices patterns and the modern languages, opened my mind a lot. The applications I built 10 years ago were almost at child-level, than the latest one.
Theory is important.
Cheers
Biggest fault of Netduino? It runs by electricity.
I have somewhat of a mixed background in that I am a radio amateur (ham radio) as well as working as a programmer all my life.
In reading this thread (and lots more like it on other forums) I believe that often times people overlook that there is a big difference between knowing enough to get something to work and thoroughly understanding it.
Consider changing the oil in your car. That is something most people can do without an understanding of how an internal combustion engine works. By the same token there are some basics that one needs to know in order to do it safely and not ruin the engine. Things like "Shut the car off before crawling underneath to drain the oil" and 'Be sure to check the oil level on the dipstick before restarting the car and then check for leaks."
Now consider a simple electric lamp. One needs to have a power source, a lamp and some wire to connect them. One does not need to understand the difference between AC and DC current, or for that matter even care.
A good electrical engineer will understand Maxwell's equations, just as someone with a degree in computer science should thoroughly understand design patterns. That having been said, I know lots of people making a living as a programmer could not implement a state machine if their life depended on it.
The plain fact is that for _most_ of the things that beginners want to do with single board computers, knowledge of graduate level engineering is simply not required. What is helpful is the level of knowledge typically required to earn a boy (or girl) scout merit badge. Much of what one needs to know is best learned in a group environment with hands on labs. One could take EE courses at a university or one could simply go to a local hackerspace and learn by doing, benefiting from the experience and knowledge of others.
For those wanting an on-line resource to gain greater exposure to basic EE, two sites I have found helpful are the EEV blog and The Signal Path. If you are rusty on the math or other academic topics (like differential equations) the Khan Academy is a great resource.
Just keep in mind that learning electrical engineering and building simple projects are not always the same.
Finally allow me to say something to the EEs here. For a programmer who already knows C# (or VB) an .Net the Netduino is an ideal first single board computer. Why? because he already has the toolchain (Visual Studio) installed and running on his computer. While there are great, open source toolchains such as GNU on Unix available for a multitude of single board computers, for a programmer who uses Visual Studio on a daily basis that would simply be one more hurtle to getting started with micro-controllers. Similarly for a person with Unix PC who regularly programs in GCC, the Netduino may not be ideal.
Mention was made of the TI MSP430 which at a cost of $4.30 delivered has to be one best deals going. Personally if I am going to make a mistake and destroy a micro-controller I would rather make the mistake with one of my TI 430s than one of my Netduino Plus at $60. Heck, many places charge more that $4.30 just to ship a Netduino! The point being that there are lots of boards and parts available and it is usually best to try many of them and learn rather than fret over finding the one best one.
I am a bit disapoionted that my earlier post was interpreted as "discouragement". The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from learning/accomplishing/succeeding. From my perspective I read Moskus' post as one that was looking for, perhaps, other peoples ideas, opinions, learning from others mistakes and pitfalls?
I stand enlightened now realizing that I kind of forgot that this is a "Netduino" forum and the audience is likely well versed in C#.
After reading Inquisitor's reply about "such a book" I was going to send a list of books that I bought waaaay back in the mid 80's from, of all places, Radio Shack called "Engineer's Mini-Notebook" by Forrest M. Mims III. But, I see from Mario's reply that he found the same material in an all-in-one book. Good catch Mario! The web page for Mims is: http://www.forrestmi..._notebook.html. This may tell you that I go way back. Really. Way back.
Another handy "reference" is called "Ugly's Electrical References" by George V. Hart. See: http://www.uglys.net/Electrical.aspx
My version is from 2002 and, yes, the same rules still apply today. Some local codes may have changed but ...
It would be interesting to get some feedback from members as to why they zeroed in on the Netduino. As for me I was drooling at the prospect of being able to use a microcontroller with managed code! Internet, mass storage, USB ... What a great idea. I first saw the GHI hardware which eventually led to the Netduino and I was hooked. Now, like Moskus, I have a hard time getting it to do anything. I am so envious of people with a programmers mentality. Oh well.
I liked JonnyBoats reply. I know that, being a Ham, you are indeed bridging the two worlds! I never liked the antenna stuff though.
An interesting "outside looking in" observation. The laws of physics (thus electricity) do not change neither do the laws of logic. It still requires an on or off/1 or 0/yes or no to make a logical (digital) decision. If ..then is as valid in a sequence of machine instructions as it is in your everyday life. The way these laws are applied have not changed - only the tools that apply them have.
Now there is that "maybe" fuzzy stuff?
Regards.
I though the whole idea behind the Netduino was that it's almost the same as the Arduino, but you can take advante of the .NET Micro framework? Many of the Arduino shields supposedly work with the Netduino.
don't know how to connect it to anything...
Netduino is really good for those just starting out with electronics too. A year ago when Netduino launched, there was of course no community and much less source code for .NET Micro Framework out there. Today, with 10,000's of people using Netduino and many contributing here in one online community...there is a lot of support for people at all stages of electronics.
That said, we think Arduino is pretty nifty too. If you want to get into hardcore 8-bit C hacking or want to use the notepad-like IDE (no debugging or nice tools--but good for simpler art projects), you can certainly play there too...
We're here to help and support each other. It'll be fun to see what you build!
...
It would be interesting to get some feedback from members as to why they zeroed in on the Netduino. ...
For me it was a no brainer... working all day with Visual Studio in my day job and all home projects as well... Windows Phone 7 apps, engineering apps for my other bad habits... designing boats and etc...
Also, have a friend at work and after watching five minutes of him dink'n in the Arduino editor and I was sold! People can give Microsoft grief on many things, but I haven't seen anything touch Visual Studio (Eclipse included)... but then I might be biased
And I'm glad I did... the Netduino... JUST WORKS!
I just wish the hardware side was as falling off the log easy. Maybe someday.
@JonnyBoat: happy to read that you were a Ham, my (poor) dad was too. He, together with his friends, were awarded for the longest communication (over 400Km) at 1200MHz in Italy. Nowadays it makes smiling, but it was on '59.
Anyway, I agree with you. Everybody has good viewpoints.
My suggestion to who's approaching to the electronics to play with *duino is only for *basic* knowledge.
The Maxwell equations are a nightmare: I guess none of us need them. I don't remember them too.
I guess few people also need the differential equations, but...the CS people didn't know them?
What I see is that most of the circuits may be modeled as DC. Very few guys were asking for analog behaviors involving amplifiers and similar. Under this condition you don't need any differential equation, and the formulas are the high-school ones.
So many people was asking for driving a led, or a motor. They wanted to connect a pot or a switch.
All that is *not* involving any complex formula, and all their difficulty -IMHO- is because they don't know the very basics. They see some components, but they don't know how to connect together. Once connected, the circuit works, but still they don't know why...
It's much like a guy is trying to write a program without knowing what the instructions do.
Perhaps the digital logic development is much closer to the programming. There are "blocks" to compose each other, to obtain a function...Yes, I guess is much like the functional programming.
That's pretty simple, until you keep the frequencies below some megahertz...
Cheers
EDIT: just a word about Netduino. As you may have read, I own both a Netduino and an Arduino. They are *not* the same, and *not* replaceable, in general. I would see them as complementary.
Netduino and the MF would have to grow, and offer an easier access to the hardware level. On the other side, using Arduino *NOT* always the life is easy!
Biggest fault of Netduino? It runs by electricity.
Whoa! The community around the Netduino is not only great, it is fantastic! I love it when people are enthusiastic and have opinions. Thank you all for confirming that I got the right product (for me).
@Mario Vernari
Math and physics don't scare me at all. I like them both very much!
Circuits and electronics, however, do scare me. I am a master in civil engineering, specialized in acoustics. At the university someone was trying to teach us some acoustics using circuits instead of a simple mass/spring connection.
I really didn't understand anything and I almost failed the course because of it. That scared the cr@p out of me, as I don't think I'm a stupid guy (it only seems that way ).
The main problem to me is that it seems that people that KNOWS electric circuits and all that stuff, think it is so easy that EVERYBODY should know it. And, as far as I know, it IS really easy but nobody has been able to explain it to me in a way I can understand it.
But then again, I haven't really sat down and read a book on the subject. Yet. And I believe I will have to do that (too bad your suggestion didn't have a Kindle version, but I'll find one).
Inquisitor
Thank you for the pointers! I'll check the other accelerometer to see if I can get started somehow. A stepper motor(s) and a driver seems like the way to go at the time being. Thanks!
Bill E.
I didn't think of you as "discouraging". You got my point. I'm really looking for pointers like "remember kids, do this, but don't do that". It seemes to me that on this forum (which is fantastic) therea are more electronic engingeers than there are hobbyists (or programmers).
I'm not a professional EE or a professional programmer. I only program applications and scripts to help me cope with my work and my home automation system. More and more lately I have a feeling that I'm missing the right hardware and that's when I started looking for a "development system" that could help me. The Netduino seems rather good!
Chris Walker
It's always good to see a communtiy growing! To me, that means it's a platform worth investigating and this thread confirms my impression of the Netduino.
I like being able to create applications that may solve a problem currently existing programs can't do. And from time to time, in my profession, it's not uncommon. To me this is just an extension of that, out of the software world and in to the hardware world.
I believe I will have to read up on the basics of electronic engineering. Start from scratch with resistors, current and so on. The problem is that if I knew where to start I would already have done so...
Thank yo, Mario. I've seen many of these analogies before, but seeing them now in this condensed form actually made more sense (and perhaps I've gotten a little more knowledge and experience since last time).
However, I believe I'm still not getting my point through. For "speed is distance over time" to make sense you need to know about "distance" and "time" and how to measure both. From there on you can move forward to "Force is mass with an acceleration", which requires knowledge about mass and how it's measured and what acceleration really is.
This is kind of the same. I want to learn how to blink a LED, how to combine it with a resistor, light sensor, turn an engine/servo ond and off and so on. And I hoped to learn it by using the Netduino.
When you learn programming as a hobby, you don't really need two full years of reading up on Object Oriented Programming, and three years of C, C++ and Java after that. You start by creating a "Hello World" program in the desired language, and you build up on that.
However, with programming there are thousands of articles and tutorials on the net, and they cover almost everything you want to know. If you have a problem, you can be sure you're not the only one.
The Netduino seems to be missing something in the middle. The projects on this page shows us how to blink a led and turn it on/off by using code. That's fine. But there HAS to be something between the advanced posts here on the forum and those (too) simple tutorials on the "Projects" page.
Perhaps it's because most guys using Netduinos are electrical engineers, not software developers. I don't know, it's just a theory.
However, I DO really need to read up on the basics. And I will.
The Netduino seems to be missing something in the middle. The projects on this page shows us how to blink a led and turn it on/off by using code. That's fine. But there HAS to be something between the advanced posts here on the forum and those (too) simple tutorials on the "Projects" page.
A big sigh here.
I know what Moskus is feeling. And I am at a loss as to where that "something in the middle" is. I tried to explain my thoughts for the last half hour in this reply and then just deleted it all because it was becoming so garbled and sounding like gibberish.
I am anxiously awaiting Chris's book release. The "Internet of things" book just didn't do it for me. Maybe Chris's book will? Maybe it will simply "click!" for me?
Give me my soldering iron!!! My kingdom for a roll of solder! A damp sponge. Needle nosed pliers and diagonal cutters. Spec sheets rule!!
Regards all!
Bill
), but the main problem is that at the moment I don't know how to connect it to anything... 
