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Current state of the Go


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#1 NXTwoThou

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:27 PM

It's been 2 months since I've been on here.  Someone actually wants to buy our product.  It can't work because, the last determination was that we needed to wait for the Go hubs.  What's the status on them? 

 

"soon" is not an answer.



#2 Steve French

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:40 PM

I agree with you on the soon.  What is your product?



#3 Arron Chapman

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:33 PM

It's been 2 months since I've been on here.  Someone actually wants to buy our product.  It can't work because, the last determination was that we needed to wait for the Go hubs.  What's the status on them? 

 

"soon" is not an answer.

Simply "Not Soon."  There are half a dozen things in front of the hubs, none of which I suspect you'll see inside the next 2 weeks (month even?).

 

 

 

Note: I don't work for nor represent Secret Labs, the opinions stated above are my own.


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#4 theTroll

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

This is not meant to be an attack so don't take it that way.

 

How do you have something to sale that is based on something that doesn't exist?  Before you start to try to sale a product, shouldn't you be able to get all of the parts required for that product?

 

Now you have someone that is clamoring for something that doesn't acutally exist.  Also, even if you had the hub tomorrow, wouldn't you need to do some testing before you handed this product off?

 

I have been in this type of business for a long long time.  Just a suggestion, don't start advertising or offering your product until it is completely done and tested.  If you do, you will end up with a bad reputation and the sales you think you might have lost by waiting will be nothing compared to the sales you WILL loose by offering a product you can't deliver. 

 

Note:  I am also not with Secret Labs and all views expressed are my own and do not reflect in anyway on Chris or Secret Labs.



#5 eplaksienko

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

I absolutely agree with Troll, at least Secret Labs could finish Gadgeteer extention to be able to use GHI modules, and of course should be found solution with SB working much slow then Netduino or Arduino, I think those 2 things are the most critical from my point of view



#6 Nevyn

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:50 AM

I'm also getting a little tired of the "to be released soon" messages.  In fact I have now got to the point where I ignore any new pending product announcements as hype.  I agree with Troll, announcing something which does not appear annoys people.  I can see the point in letting a community know what is heading our way but I'd like to see firm delivery dates not FITA dates.

 

I'm a great fan of these products but the only posts I have any confidence in are those which are restricted to technical discussions.

 

Regards,

Mark


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#7 Arron Chapman

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:44 PM

I absolutely agree with Troll, at least Secret Labs could finish Gadgeteer extention to be able to use GHI modules, and of course should be found solution with SB working much slow then Netduino or Arduino, I think those 2 things are the most critical from my point of view

The speed issues will never change, think about what happens.  Process data on mainboard, transmit to shield base (currently via UART later via SPI), process data, set pin states.  If you really need speed choose another device like the N+2.

 

I'm also getting a little tired of the "to be released soon" messages.  In fact I have now got to the point where I ignore any new pending product announcements as hype.  I agree with Troll, announcing something which does not appear annoys people.  I can see the point in letting a community know what is heading our way but I'd like to see firm delivery dates not FITA dates.

 

I'm a great fan of these products but the only posts I have any confidence in are those which are restricted to technical discussions.

 

Regards,

Mark

I think you missed the mark on this one a little, Troll was referring to NXTwoThou,


When you talk EE use small words, I'm just a Software Developer :)
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Oh my. So many things, so little money!!

 


#8 eplaksienko

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:40 PM

Arron, I know it's not going to be the same as N+2 or Arduino, but currently what I see is just unacceptable, basically I can not use Stepper motor and sonic range finder, I think this could be tuned, or may be something similar to RPI to have separate control on main board and SB



#9 Arron Chapman

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:50 PM

Arron, I know it's not going to be the same as N+2 or Arduino, but currently what I see is just unacceptable, basically I can not use Stepper motor and sonic range finder, I think this could be tuned, or may be something similar to RPI to have separate control on main board and SB

 

It's a beta product so I'm not sure what you expect, but high performance shouldn't be on that list.


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#10 eplaksienko

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:52 AM

There is no point in beta if no release in mind :D, I am not talking about high high performance, but for example 4-5 quicker would be enough for Stepper and 10 for sonic range finder. 

 

Actually, isn't it SB already works via SPI?



#11 Arron Chapman

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:57 AM

There is no point in beta if no release in mind :D, I am not talking about high high performance, but for example 4-5 quicker would be enough for Stepper and 10 for sonic range finder. 

 

Actually, isn't it SB already works via SPI?

If I'm not mistaken the Shield Base is still using UART for it's coms.


When you talk EE use small words, I'm just a Software Developer :)
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Oh my. So many things, so little money!!

 


#12 eplaksienko

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:10 PM

Hopefully this will move somewhere



#13 Chris Walker

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:48 PM

Hi NXTwoThou,

There are a lot of moving parts with Netduino Go and GoBus, and I can see that I have done a subpar job at explaining what the release timelines look like and what the dependencies are. :(

We'll work up a roadmap page, but let me explain more details on the new accessories and protocol enhancements here first...

Protocols are hard things. They take time. Bluetooth took several years to get to v2.1 and gain features which drove adoption. We're in the enviable position of being able to define the GoBus protocol without a large committee, which makes it a lot faster, but it's still taking time to refine and test and implement. We're currently finishing up some other projects at Secret Labs which will let us free up some non-Netduino resources to help out...and once we have beta firmware for the new modules we'll be able to solicit feedback from the community which should really help out as well.

Each of the new accessories (and the release firmware for Shield Base) depend on a next-generation version of GoBus or on firmware which implements those protocol enhancements. We're working on an implementation of GoBus 1.5 that can be used broadly...and Arron and others have been working away at their own implementations for various micros as well. There's lots of work going on, but it's largely going on behind the scenes. We should try to share more of that here.

GoBus 1.0
All of the launch modules used GoBus 1.0. This standardized the enumeration of modules, but didn't expose standard Virtual I/O profiles or post-enumeration data frame structures.

Shield Base originally used a special non-standardized implementation so that we could start testing the gen2 hardware infrastructure in preparation for Netduino 2 and Netduino Plus 2.

GoBus 1.5
GoBus 1.5 adds standard profiles and protocol frames, which is what will really make GoBus soar. It's also the most intensive transition and implementation process.

Shield Base is the first module to get a basic GoBus 1.5 implementation, and is allowing us to get good feedback on the serial (UART) transport. This transport will be used to enable wlreless links over XBee and other GoBus features in the future...and it brings actual virtual I/O to Netduino Go today.

The next step (which is what we're focused on right now) is GoBus 1.5 firmware for STM32-based modules. This is a native code implementation which will be used first on the Ethernet module and then on the Shield Base and Gadgeteer Adapter modules. The SD card modules will use a superset of this firmware, since we need to do some card initialization in native code on the module's STM32F0 microcontroller itself.

This is where we're at now...getting the GoBus 1.5 firmware for STM32 ready for primetime. It's taking a while, but once it hits the "working and ready for testing" milestone, we'll be able to get hardware out to beta testers. Some modules may come out of the beta really quickly, while others may have more features and more use scenarios which require more testing.

After the STM32 firmware is published, we'll slim it down for the STM8S implementation. That will be used on the existing modules (Potentiometer, Piezo Buzzer, RGB LED) as well as the new STM8S-based modules (Ambient Light, XBee Adapter, RS-232). But we're focused on the STM32 implementation right now...as getting the Ethernet module shipped is our #1 product development priority for Netduino Go and GoBus.

GoBus 2.0
GoBus 1.5 was designed with GoBus 2.0 in mind. GoBus 2.0 will bring quite a few new features, the most important of which will be hubs.

We have built hub development test hardware. Once GoBus 1.5 is out the door, we'll be switching our focus to 2.0, hubs, power injectors, and more. But from a technical perspective I don't want to set expectations that 2.0 is going to ship before 1.5. It's a superset of 1.5, so 1.5 needs to come first.

Timeline
Our focus with Netduino Go right now is to get Ethernet modules out to beta testers this spring/summer. That firmware will also enable the first beta testing for the Gadgeteer Adapter (and the native code SPI transport version of the Shield Base firmware).

Once that's wrapped, we'll move onto the others. Timelines for major open source projects and major new protocols are notoriously fuzzy, so I don't want to speculate right now on dates for the rest. The hardest part is getting the current STM32 firmware done. The STM8S firmware will be much simpler. The hub firmware...somewhere in between.

While Netduino Go works with hundreds of accessories today (between native GoBus modules, Netduino Go accessories, and shields), I'm particularly excited about the kinds of projects users will be able to build once the new GoBus 1.5 firmware ships. It has taken and will take some time to get right and get out the door. I am really looking forward to user feedback.

Other than that...technical discussions about this stuff are good. I know that what everyone really wants to do is play and build stuff with the tech...but in the meantime we can also discuss the technology and work through feedback to make sure that future enhancements to the technology suit users' needs well.

Thank you all very much for coming along on this journey,

Chris

#14 eplaksienko

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:01 AM

Chris, amateur question , Is it possible or will be possible to make work NGO and SB independently, something like for example RPI and Alamode



#15 fradav

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

Chris,

 

I understand perfectly your timeline and the way you put it and I'm not worried about it. GoBus 1.5/2.0 will be an absolute killer, and will have a major impact in MCU world, IF it comes out to fruition.

 

What I am worried is more about mid and long term future of the project. The GoBus project, and whatever is related to it (hardware, firmware, maintenance and updates and so on), is an ambitious one. Such project usually siphons a lot of human resources for a while, and if insufficiently funded, it could lead to two possibilities :

 

- cancelation

 

- switching business model from "free" open sources to closed (or charged access to) sources (ala Premium Library from GHI), I'm pretty sure it is even viable from an economical point of view, the need for GoBus features could alone exceeds the need of free sources in many cases.

 

What is your stand on this? How many people are working on GoBus enabled STM32 firmware for example ?

 

Regards,



#16 Jack Chidley

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:16 PM

What can we, the community, do to help?

 

While I wait for things to be released, I'm trying to get everything that I own (not much) to work on the platform.  Or at least get reproducible bugs. 

 

I'm learning a lot.  I love learning.  It's easy to learn when you know as little as I do!

 

Jack



#17 Steve French

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 05:55 PM

I agree with you Jack, what can we do?  The potential of the GO is huge - how can we help?  Some sort of KickStarter perhaps?



#18 Chris Walker

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:22 PM

Hi eplaksienko,

Chris, amateur question , Is it possible or will be possible to make work NGO and SB independently, something like for example RPI and Alamode

Early adopters for Netduino Go get Shield Bases with an upgraded MCU which itself runs NETMF. If you want, you can run independent code on Shield Base today...although most users will use it as Virtual I/O for Netduino Go. Later this year, we'll be switching Shield Base production to use its normal MCU (which doesn't have enough flash to hold NETMF). At that point, you'd need to tinker with native code to make your Shield Base an independent board. Chris

#19 Chris Walker

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:42 PM

Hi fradav and Steve, Great questions. Netduino is an open source platform. It was born that way :) We've built it as a separate brand from Secret Labs, and it gets its own engineering resources. We originally funded it with several hundred thousand dollars (to cover initial engineering and inventory) and now it is profitable enough that it funds its own continued development separate from other projects and product lines at Secret Labs. There are no plans to change the business model for Netduino from open source to closed source. The very nature of Netduino as a platform for engineers to tinker and prototype commercial products really necessitates that it remains open source. Open source hardware can ironically be more expensive to develop and less profitable than closed source hardware--but Netduino's open source mantra is important to us, the Netduino community, and our commercial customers (who depend on open source as the ultimate escrow). Since our open source licenses are free and non-viral, community members and commercial companies can build commercial products on Netduino without needing to make their additions open source as well. We have several initiatives within Secret Labs--both with Netduino and in other product lines--which use GoBus. GoBus is not going anywhere except forward! We have a special release of GoBus (also open source) which will be available on other .NET-powered platforms later this year; it happens to be code compatible with Netduino Go. The pipeline is pretty rich. I'll share what I can when I can. On hardware--we have designed and built samples of several new modules for Netduino Go (and in some cases, full production batches). We're using these to test the new GoBus 1.5 firmware releases for STM32/STM8S. As the firmware wraps up, we will be able to start shipping quite a few new pieces of hardware (as will other community members--who have also been working on GoBus modules) pretty quickly. As for what the community can do: please continue sharing your enthusiasm, your ideas, and your projects. As we release new hardware and firmware, please help us hunt down bugs and tune performance. GoBus is a long-term strategy here, and we really appreciate your help helping ensure that it works well in the field. We want to help enable your cool new projects. Chris




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