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Any ETAs for Netduino Plus 2 Fixes?


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#21 Lunddahl

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:41 AM

But you can't sell a product (development or not) that offers a feature (i.e. I2C) that doesn't work. I can't use my N+2 because all my sensors are I2C!


Sure you can, look around you the world is full of buggy products with tremendous success anyway.

However, you should fix major bugs, and i have no reason to think that Secret Labs is not going to do just that, in fact they do it all the time.

For me lack of communication means you are not in control of the situation. If someone says they will release something within a time frame they don't honor then they don't update you on the situation I find that disrespectful!


I think you have set you expatiation's to high, and i think it's disrespectful to put pressure on Chris for not working 24/7, just because he normally do.

I also think Chris should learn not to communicate deadlines on the forums anymore, because some people clearly read "we should have" as "we promise to have"...

Come on, we all know one can't predict when you have a fix for a bug you haven't located, we also know that Chris is not able instantly release a fix for bugs that also reaches into the NETMF source tree.

So get a shot of reality here, Chris last post was just 6 days ago...

#22 Basiclife

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:44 AM

Well, i'm keeping mine, i think Chris Walker has done a tremendous amount of work to make the netduinos a reality.

...

Sometimes people just need a recharge, and no one have promised you anything other than a prototype development platform with community support.


While I don't think I'm quite as annoyed as others, I'm definitely not happy. I know an awful lot of work has gone into the netduinos and it's appreciated but the number of buggy/incomplete features is surprisingly large. Personally, I can live with the little ones but big ones like this need to be addressed in a timely fashion. If the original ETA had been 3 weeks, I don't think anyone would've minded waiting 3 weeks. Even if it was expected to take a week and will now take 3, a simple post from Chris to that effect would probably have made me comfortable to wait. What I personally find to be an issue is an ETA that passes with no updates/news. It makes it seem like the issue isn't being taken seriously.

In any case, I'll wait a little while but I do object to having forked out for a bit of kit that's not usable.

#23 Geancarlo2

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:55 AM

So get a shot of reality here, Chris last post was just 6 days ago...

/irony?

The issue at hand is no word from anyone representing "Secret Labs", it makes people uneasy. It is a really bad course of action given the state of NP2.

#24 carb

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

While I don't pretend to know the cause of the delay or lack of communication I have to give Chris the benifit of doubt. Sometime people tend to have a short memory. If you look back through the posts on this forum and look at the timestamp on the post that Chris has made you will find that they are posted at all times of the day. He has spent considerable time helping some of us. What ever the reason for the delay it has not been that long. The firmware made it out with some features not working. They may have been able to get some of the problems fixed and release the update last weekend only to discover new problems. I have to think that the extra time will pay off in the long run with a better product. No matter the cause of the delay (personal, illness or just trying to get the fixes done) I think most of us should be able to find a little patience and wait a little longer. Chuck

#25 pounce

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:32 AM

i agree that the netduino platform is awesome and the forum is excellent!

But you can't sell a product (development or not) that offers a feature (i.e. I2C) that doesn't work. I can't use my N+2 because all my sensors are I2C!

For me lack of communication means you are not in control of the situation. If someone says they will release something within a time frame they don't honor then they don't update you on the situation I find that disrespectful!


Are you developing a commercial product or are you using the netduino for personal use or hobby work?

Its not uncommon on many of the duino platforms to have issues. I'm a little curious as to the heightened reaction you are having and the number of threads you have posted to on the topic.

What if it takes 2 weeks to get a fix?

The truth is you can sell a product that doesn't work and you can break product that worked with updates... whenever people are involved. :)

#26 JerseyTechGuy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:55 AM

For me, I am working on prototypes for commercial products. I have no critical deadlines. I would like to get them to marked sometime soon, but again not under any deadlines. I've had problems that I thought would take 2 days and they took 2 weeks. Again it's not about the time. If it takes then 2 days, 2 weeks or 2 months to fix it, then it is what it is. Again, it goes back to communication and for there to be no posts from anyone at SecretLabs regarding the ND+2 issues or fix statuses for two weeks is the issue. If I was notified by a client that the software I just put out had issues I would of course be working to get it fixed but if I didn't communicate with the client for several weeks I would expect them to be irate about it and I would totally expect to get some flack. So again, not ticked about the timelines... it will take what it takes. The lack of communication is the issue. It took me 2.5 minutes to write this message. I am sure anyone can afford 2.5 minutes to post a status message... that is the point.

#27 DaveRVW

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:49 AM

Hi guys! I posted a workaround for I2C issues as a new topic.

davervw

#28 Chris Walker

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:06 AM

Hi Dave, egeorgiou, Basiclife, First of all, let's make sure your I2C is up and running. I just posted the 4.2.1.1 update here: http://forums.netdui...-v421-update-1/ I've been largely offline for the last 4 days while we got this update tested, worked with Microsoft to test the upcoming .NET Micro Framework 4.3, and worked on the ENC28J60 configuration issue. Sometimes we get so intense in getting things done that we neglect to post updates--sorry about that. I did not realize that anyone had such serious concerns or I would have taken the day off and been here for you all. We've been very focused on getting firmware updates wrapped up. If you ever have a serious concern or a critical need, please PM me and let me know. Several of us work up to 80 hours a week around here, making sure that we put in full time effort on Netduino regardless of other projects. Regarding I2C... There were some late-cycle code optimizations which mis-configured the I2C pins. Oddly enough we still had success with one test case but we were not testing I2C well enough. With such a radical update as Netduino Plus -> Netduino Plus 2 and so many thousands of uses we knew there would be a few rough edges. We didn't expect an entire peripheral to be broken. So sorry about that; we have created a much more thorough I2C use case for future upgrades. On ETAs... We have a few updates in the works. Here are the two that will be of most interest. Netduino Firmware v4.2.1.2: * What's New: ENC28J60 bug fix (to pull in settings properly) * Timeline: We're working on this now. We've posted a workaround in the thread linked above...and will have a permanent fix soon. Netduino SDK v4.2.1 (December Update) * What's New: Automatic update of NetduinoPlus hardware provider to Netduino (single hardware provider model) * What's New: New AnalogInput and PWM legacy classes * Timeline: Mid-December 2012 We've had a few reports of odd SPI glitches (with edge settings) and similar issues. If you're experiencing an issue which isn't listed above, please start or add to a thread about it. The above issues are our top priorities...but we want to address any/all issues. We're here to make sure your experience with the hardware is awesome, and I apologize if your first experience didn't meet our normal quality bar. We're learning--and modifying our procedures--to help ensure we don't let you down. Chris

#29 Basiclife

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:29 AM

Hi Dave, egeorgiou, Basiclife,

First of all, let's make sure your I2C is up and running. I just posted the 4.2.1.1 update here:
...
Chris


Well, I'm not sure about the others but that certainly shut me up. Thank you.

#30 Nevyn

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:37 AM

I did not realize that anyone had such serious concerns or I would have taken the day off and been here for you all. We've been very focused on getting firmware updates wrapped up.

I think that we are used to a regular presence in the forums which means that when serious concerns about bugs and deadlines aren't responded to people get twitchy. We are used to someone checking in on a daily basis. Not necessarily on the "how do I do this" type of questions as a few of the forum members can help with that stuff but certainly on the questions of releases and bug fixes.

The support you guys give is great so when it disappears it's a shock.

Thanks for the update,
Mark

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#31 egeorgiou

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:50 PM

The update has not solved my issues with I2C communications. Has anyone else tried the new update? It would be great to know if it is just my device or not. Thank you to Chris for the hard work to get the update to us. I'm a big fan of the Netduino and hope to get my device working soon.

#32 Chris Walker

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:55 PM

Hi egeorgiou,

The update has not solved my issues with I2C communications. Has anyone else tried the new update? It would be great to know if it is just my device or not.

Thank you to Chris for the hard work to get the update to us. I'm a big fan of the Netduino and hope to get my device working soon.

Let me consolidate these a bit so we make sure we get you up and running. Here's the update to your other post:
http://forums.netdui...dpost__p__40535

Chris

#33 JerseyTechGuy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:35 PM

I have tried with several sensors and an LCD. I2C is still NOT working.

#34 Chris Walker

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:18 AM

Hi Dave,

I have tried with several sensors and an LCD. I2C is still NOT working.

Let me consolidate these two threads really quick. Picking up the conversation on the I2C thread...
http://forums.netdui...dpost__p__40548

Chris

#35 spannertech

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:54 AM

I'm a complete newbie to Netduino. I just purchased a Netduino2 plus from Amazon and just wanted to test with the "blinky" project to make sure all was well with the hardware and software. I get the "The Debugging Target is not in an initialized state; rebooting" message. I've looked at some of the suggestions for getting over this..some seem to date back a while, and some of the advice seems to expect you to work quite a bit just to get this thing actually working, and frankly I'm a little intimidated I might screw things up. MFDeploy tells me.. targetFrameworkVersion 4.2.0.0 Solutionreleaseinfo.solutionVersion: 4.2.0.3 SolutionReleaseInfo.solutionVendorInfo: Netduino Pluse 2 (v4.2.1.0) From what I've read above, should I return this now while I can? Didn't expect these headaches. Thx Oliver P

#36 Basiclife

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

I'm a complete newbie to Netduino. I just purchased a Netduino2 plus from Amazon and just wanted to test with the "blinky" project to make sure all was well with the hardware and software.

...



Hi Oliver, although I've personally had issues with the nd+2, I absolutely love my netduino and SL have usually been pretty damned good about getting things resolved. I was a little disappointed it shipped with the issues mentioned above (as you can probably tell) but I'm pretty confident they'll be resolved ASAP. Other (more experienced) members may be able to help with your current problem (which doesn't sound like the same thing we're discussing here). I'd suggest you start a new thread to with full details and see what happens.

#37 Arron Chapman

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:48 AM

is it possible to get an eta on when the issue will be resolved? can we return our boards for ones that work?


From my experience in software and as of late software that runs close to the hardware it's impossible to say with any certainty how long it will take until your done. Chris will often cite the time he expects it to be done, but as it goes with these sorts of things it turns out to be more complicated. Sometimes a simple fix regresses the entire rest of the system and ends up taking orders of magnitude longer to fix than planned, and during these times it's best to stay heads down and get it fixed than to spend time jabbering about it.

That is a good question. I purchased several ND+2 thinking they would be somewhat ready to rock. Now I regret it... should have ordered ND+ so I could keep working on my new projects. Don't these things get tested at least a little?


You can still order Netduino Plus' at Amazon. The devices get tested quite a bit, by more than just Secret Labs, but there is no chance that every possible use case can be accounted for, something you yourself say in the next quote.


I have owned several business over my career all of which are client facing. There have been times we've release both Hardware and Software products that have had bugs. It happens as you cannot test every single scenario.


...

I am very critical with vendors when they fall on their faces. I don't typically give a vendor the "3 strikes and you are out" opportunity. There are plenty of options when it comes to getting your projects to market. I have talked to my business partners and just based on the complete lack of communication from Secret Labs, we are cautious of continuing to design any products using these boards. They pointed out that lack of communication like this happens when a company is about to bang up and close it's doors. I certainly hope for everyone's sake this is not the case.


As someone who also has run a variety of public facing businesses, I can understand some of the frustration but what I don't understand is why you'd even begin to consider a newly released product as part of yours? That's is certainly not something I'd ever consider doing for my companies, it's not going to be stable enough. Companies MUST depend on stable products to be stressful in the long run, early adoption in business is almost always a bad idea.

I just contacted Amazon.com where I purchased them and they issued me a pre-paid return shipping label and return authorization and will refund me when they receive the product. I thought maybe I spoke loud enough for Chris Walker to take a moment to chime in, but I guess not. So these boards are going back.

Ordering me two G120HDR Modules from GHI Electronics. I think I'll have better luck with them.


If you think that Secret Labs isn't fixing things fast enough, good luck with GHI.

So again, not ticked about the timelines... it will take what it takes. The lack of communication is the issue. It took me 2.5 minutes to write this message. I am sure anyone can afford 2.5 minutes to post a status message... that is the point.

It took you 2.5 minutes to write one non-technical/business post in response to one thread in one sub forum. Chris' responsibilities extend well beyond that.

Anyone who has made it far enough to use a Netduino should have learned long ago that early adopters always have it hard. If you want a feature complete, 100% stable product, wait until next year or be prepared to deal with the problems and delays that inevitably come up.

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#38 JerseyTechGuy

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:16 AM

From my experience in software and as of late software that runs close to the hardware it's impossible to say with any certainty how long it will take until your done. Chris will often cite the time he expects it to be done, but as it goes with these sorts of things it turns out to be more complicated. Sometimes a simple fix regresses the entire rest of the system and ends up taking orders of magnitude longer to fix than planned, and during these times it's best to stay heads down and get it fixed than to spend time jabbering about it.



You can still order Netduino Plus' at Amazon. The devices get tested quite a bit, by more than just Secret Labs, but there is no chance that every possible use case can be accounted for, something you yourself say in the next quote.




As someone who also has run a variety of public facing businesses, I can understand some of the frustration but what I don't understand is why you'd even begin to consider a newly released product as part of yours? That's is certainly not something I'd ever consider doing for my companies, it's not going to be stable enough. Companies MUST depend on stable products to be stressful in the long run, early adoption in business is almost always a bad idea.



If you think that Secret Labs isn't fixing things fast enough, good luck with GHI.


It took you 2.5 minutes to write one non-technical/business post in response to one thread in one sub forum. Chris' responsibilities extend well beyond that.

Anyone who has made it far enough to use a Netduino should have learned long ago that early adopters always have it hard. If you want a feature complete, 100% stable product, wait until next year or be prepared to deal with the problems and delays that inevitably come up.



Thank you for taking the time to write such an extensive post. We have now moved on beyond the initial issues within the last 36+ hours so this is a little too little and a little too late. Chris and SecretLabs have and can do a great job defending their selves. I've never liked your attitudes Arron on these boards and you don't need to chime in with useless info just to hear yourself talk. Since you know nothing about me, my technical background or my businesses or business background it's hardly your position to point out flaws in my thinking and decisions. I was likely engineering products and filing for patents when you were still in your diapers.

Sorry for my rant but some people need to learn when it's their turn to speak and to gather more information before they speak.

#39 Chris Walker

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:38 AM

Hi Oliver,

I get the "The Debugging Target is not in an initialized state; rebooting" message. I've looked at some of the suggestions for getting over this..some seem to date back a while, and some of the advice seems to expect you to work quite a bit just to get this thing actually working, and frankly I'm a little intimidated I might screw things up.

The .NET MF 4.2 SDK sometimes struggles a bit to reconnect to a device. If you unplug and re-attach your USB cable that usually fixes things.

There are quite a few updates in the new .NET MF 4.3 SDK, which is nearing completion.

BTW, don't worry about messing things up. We've built the hardware to be pretty tough. Yes it's possible to electrocute the board if you really want to...but most users have a fantastic experience.

Most importantly...I want to make sure that blinky is working for you and that you're getting off and running with a good start.

Chris

#40 Lunddahl

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:52 PM

Sorry for my rant but some people need to learn when it's their turn to speak and to gather more information before they speak.


I hope you include yourself when you mention some people!

You were clearly and in this thread told this:

I understand your feelings, I can tell you that Chris is currently working around the clock to get this dealt with. Please understand it will take some time. I spoke with Chris, and he's away from the Internet working on I2C repro scenarios right now.


However 2 days later you are talking about Secret Labs closing it's doors.

I have talked to my business partners and just based on the complete lack of communication from Secret Labs, we are cautious of continuing to design any products using these boards. They pointed out that lack of communication like this happens when a company is about to bang up and close it's doors. I certainly hope for everyone's sake this is not the case.


The result is this:

I get the "The Debugging Target is not in an initialized state; rebooting" message. I've looked at some of the suggestions for getting over this..some seem to date back a while, and some of the advice seems to expect you to work quite a bit just to get this thing actually working, and frankly I'm a little intimidated I might screw things up.

From what I've read above, should I return this now while I can? Didn't expect these headaches.


From my point of view you should have hold your horses before you went to the keyboard with your frustrations.

I see no reason why i should comment on what i think of your competences as a professional bushiness owner, or when you first were able to go to the toilet by yourself. And i don't understand why you think you have the right to waste the community's time with what you think of the other community members in public on this board.

This whole debate is so derailed that is should be removed from the forum, it serves no constructive purpose.

- Ulrik Lunddahl




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