18 replies to this topic

[CW2]

Just spotted - GHI FEZ Panda seems to be very competitive, perhaps some ideas for future Netduino revisions







P.S. I am not associated with GHI Electronics LLC in any way.

[Ravenheart]

The nice thing is GHI allow you to make it into an ARM7 devboard or you can flash it with your own NETMF firmware. Oh and its killer at its current 20 USD price

[greg]

The nice thing is GHI allow you to make it into an ARM7 devboard or you can flash it with your own NETMF firmware.

Oh and its killer at its current 20 USD price

Yeah at $20 I couldn't resist so I ordered 2.

[Chris Walker]

Regarding more pins...we're working on something(s) One of the big (unique) things to remember with Netduino is that it's 100% open source--hardware and software. You can erase the Netduino and compile the actual source code from scratch. In fact, we contributed much of the source and bug fixes back to Microsoft--so they're included in the core .NET Micro Framework codebase for the benefit of all .NET MF products. We're all about building community and giving our users the freedom to unleash their creativity. Netduino is only five weeks old and you folks have already created some pretty fantastic drivers and projects. Thanks for being members of the Netduino community, Chris P.S. Oh, and we have some more surprises in store.

[greg]

Regarding more pins...we're working on something(s)

One of the big (unique) things to remember with Netduino is that it's 100% open source--hardware and software. You can erase the Netduino and compile the actual source code from scratch. In fact, we contributed much of the source and bug fixes back to Microsoft--so they're included in the core .NET Micro Framework codebase for the benefit of all .NET MF products.

We're all about building community and giving our users the freedom to unleash their creativity. Netduino is only five weeks old and you folks have already created some pretty fantastic drivers and projects.

Thanks for being members of the Netduino community,

Chris

P.S. Oh, and we have some more surprises in store.

Don't worry Chris - I'll be checking your new toys out too. I just couldn't say no to $20 for more pins.

[pascal06]

Regarding more pins...we're working on something(s)

One of the other big unique advantages of the Netduino is that it's 100% open source--hardware and software. You can erase the Netduino and compile the actual source code from scratch. In fact, we contributed much of the source back and bug fixes back to Microsoft--so it's included in the core .NET Micro Framework codebase for the benefit of all .NET MF products.

We're all about building community and giving our users the freedom to unleash their creativity. Netduino is only five weeks old and you folks have already created some pretty fantastic drivers and projects.

Thanks for being members of the Netduino community,

Chris

P.S. Oh, and we have some more surprises in store.

This is a key point. It was the main feature when I decided to purchase a Netduino. Without firmware source, I can be limited in future. And what about using multiple type of board and sharing a maximum of code ... I also purchase a Tahoe II board for the same key point. But it's not the same market. For my point of view, selling a .NET micro framework board with a proprietary firmware can be a good way to create a captive market ... not good for us.

[Omar (OZ)]

Just spotted - GHI FEZ Panda seems to be very competitive, perhaps some ideas for future Netduino.

Quick question before they raise that price .. Does it come assembled or do I have to solder the things on it?

EDIT:

P.S. Oh, and we have some more surprises in store.

NVM, I'd rather stay with the netduino firmware and what not... Waiting for a Netduino with more Pins is not a problem. I can't wait though, I want to actually make a useful project soon.

[Ravenheart]

You can flash it with whatever firmware you want, you can even use it as an ARM7 devboard. Do note that once you remove the GHI BootLoader(if you want to use your own NETMF firmware or native ARM7 code) you will not be able to flash back on the GHI firmware.

[Chris Walker]

You can flash it with whatever firmware you want, you can even use it as an ARM7 devboard. Do note that once you remove the GHI BootLoader(if you want to use your own NETMF firmware or native ARM7 code) you will not be able to flash back on the GHI firmware.

I think the point that he was making is that the company who makes that board is holding back their actual NETMF source which enables the board's peripheral features (ADC, PWM, etc.)--so if you want to flash your own NETMF firmware you have to start from the more barebones implementation that Microsoft provides in the porting kit (and you're on your own--they won't let you flash the original closed-source firmware back onto it).

The contrast is that in open source projects you can build on top of what the project and community members have already built...

But certainly, at fire-sale-like prices, you can use that as an ARM devboard and write C/C++ code on it. For people wanting to pick up a C++ ARM devboard, not a bad deal at all.

Chris

[Szymon]

I think the point that he was making is that the company who makes that board is holding back their actual NETMF source which enables the board's peripheral features (ADC, PWM, etc.)--so if you want to flash your own NETMF firmware you have to start from the more barebones implementation that Microsoft provides in the porting kit (and you're on your own--they won't let you flash the original closed-source firmware back onto it).

Actually according to this post http://www.tinyclr.com/forum/14/875/ this time they are going to release the firmware source code for this board. If thats true I really like the change of direction.

Whats more Guss Issa writes a new ebook about the porting kit. You can download it here http://www.tinyclr.c...rting NETMF.pdf

[Chris Walker]

Actually according to this post http://www.tinyclr.com/forum/14/875/ this time they are going to release the firmware source code for this board. If thats true I really like the change of direction.

Whats more Guss Issa writes a new ebook about the porting kit. You can download it here http://www.tinyclr.c...rting NETMF.pdf

I wish their marketing materials weren't so confusing. They give away the reference designs for their boards...their business is selling NXP chips with a closed-source implementation of the .NET Micro Framework.

Their porting kit document describes how to compile and flash the open-source NXP ARM firmware (already included in the .NET Micro Framework porting kit). The vendor is not providing their source code, custom port, or any of the features they have added (ADC, PWM, USB support, etc.) and is very clear about that official position (although not in their marketing materials ).

From the vendor's post (the one you just referenced):

For example, even if you port NETMF, you sill do not have USB Host nor USB client. Also, you will have to keep working on bug fixing and maintaining the port yourself.

Their official position as to the porting kit is in this thread:

No. The only use for PK is what I described before, for looking at source to understand how things work (practical for our users) or use it to make you own device, which requires a LOT of experience and few months of work (not practical to our users).
...
No GHI code. That is "Microsoft" NETMF porting kit. But, with few months or years of work you can make your own GHI-like firmware. Assuming you have deep knowledge in programming and embedded systems.

I know, it's all pretty confusing. I wish everyone would join us in making open source platforms. An open source Chipworkx would be pretty cool. Maybe one day.

Chris

[Fred]

Netduino is only five weeks old

Really?! I only discovered Netduino about a week ago and got my first board yesterday, but I assumed you guys have been going for a while.

I'm very impressed with the fact that everything's open source and how helpful Secret Labs is. I'm sure GHI do some good stuff and maybe I'll look at it later, but I definitely get the feeling that SL are more about helping you do cool stuff that selling you a product. I'm intriguied to see what you come up with in the future.

[Chris Walker]

I only discovered Netduino about a week ago and got my first board yesterday, but I assumed you guys have been going for a while.

We've been working with .NET Micro Framework for about four years (I owned one of the very first .NET MF-based SPOT watches about six years ago and fell in love with the platform). But when we talked to Microsoft last summer and they expressed their interest in open-sourcing .NET Micro Framework...well, we knew we needed to do the same thing with the hardware.

I'm very impressed with the fact that everything's open source and how helpful Secret Labs is. I'm sure GHI do some good stuff and maybe I'll look at it later, but I definitely get the feeling that SL are more about helping you do cool stuff that selling you a product. I'm intriguied to see what you come up with in the future.

That's a very nice compliment, thanks a bunch! I'll pass that along... And we'll try to keep promoting the community and the cool things you all do. Speaking of which, please share your projects and successes so we can celebrate them with you too...

Welcome to the Netduino community, Fred. Glad to have you here.

Chris

[Gus Issa]

Their official position as to the porting kit is in....
I wish their marketing materials weren't so confusing...
Chris

Hello Chris,

Since I am being quoted here I thought I will make things clear for the confusing part. GHI have always worked with commercial customers who are not okay with open-source. Since we started the FEZ product line, we are seeing more and more individuals that love tinkering with software and hardware, and do not mind open source, they actually love it. So, this is where the new FEZopen firmware come in. We are keeping the USBizi firmware closed for those commercial customers but we are providing FEZopen firmware for those wanting to dig in the source codes. Yes this wasn't very clear in the past since we were not sure how to please both sides, commercial customers and open-source-lovers. So we finally decided to make 2 separate firmware versions. Not only FEZopen, but I am working on an an ebook to go along with it to detail everything to bring in more developers to the open source NETMF. I may even include details on porting NETMF on the Atmel chip you are using since the porting kit includes the port for it. GHI can help by providing all ,ind of drivers that we have been working on for long years. Of course, this will come slowly to not affect our other side of business, which is again, the commercial customers.

With everyone's help we can all join our different experiences and backgrounds (FEZ, netduino and the hundreds of NETMF users) to push NETMF to new heights. Netduino users are already benefiting from all the GHI drivers we have for all kind of components, in which we are re-releasing with apache license soon. For example, nice preliminary work you have on MAC and Linux. I look forward to see where will this go. We all can benefit from that.

The announcement: http://www.tinyclr.com/forum/15/909/
The discussion: http://www.tinyclr.com/forum/1/910/

I hope this clears things out for you and everyone.

Have fun,

Gus Issa

PS: We look forward to meet you in person at NYC maker fair.

[Chris Walker]

We are keeping the USBizi firmware closed for those commercial customers but we are providing FEZopen firmware for those wanting to dig in the source codes.

PS: We look forward to meet you in person at NYC maker fair.

Hi Gus,

It's a pleasure to meet you. Please feel free to e-mail or contact me anytime.

Regarding FEZOpen: I just downloaded it and it looks like it's a copy of the free Microsoft-provided EA_LPC2478 solution renamed as FEZOpen (but with a few features removed, memory readjusted, and USB device names inserted). I see that it builds against the Microsoft-provided NXP port, and not your custom NXP/USBizi codebase.

You can compare the files with the existing Microsoft code (after installing the .NET Micro Framework porting kit) at:
C:\MicroFrameworkPK_v4_1\Solutions\EA_LPC2478

Is there any plan to release your actual custom NXP port for the USBizi chip? There must be tens of thousands of lines of code there that could be released with all your bugfixes, enhancements, etc.. It would be great to see the actual USBizi core and enhancements contributed to the open source community.

And great news on removing the license restriction from your driver. I see that the original thread and a few dozen user posts were deleted from your forums--but the confirmation you wrote on ours is very welcome news indeed.

Thanks again for the post, and welcome to the Netduino community.

Chris
Secret Labs LLC

P.S. We'll continue sharing open source drivers and your users can continue using them with FEZ boards. They're 100% open source.

[Gus Issa]

Hi Gus,

You can compare the files with the existing Microsoft code (after installing the .NET Micro Framework porting kit) at:
C:\MicroFrameworkPK_v4_1\Solutions\EA_LPC2478

I already answered you on our forum but here is the same answer again....

Yes Chris, this is a work in progress as the download says ("Still under development."). The firmware basically reflects where the book is at. Read the book and it will all make sense.
Once I am finished with the book (maybe 2 weeks) then we will have the firmware complete with everything needed for everyone to use the port, just like netduino if not more. We have the drivers, we just need to copy them to the open source version . I may also include the Atmel chip you are using too so this should be good book for everyone I hope. This Atmel chip is already in the porting kit, I think, so porting it is much easier than what I am detailing in the book. This is why I selected the NXP chip to cover all sides of porting.

Since all sources are open on both sides, drivers for things like one-wire can be simply moved from one port to another easily. Should be a great benefit for everyone.

[Omar (OZ)]

Hardware wars much? Chill out people P.S Netduino rocks

[greg]

Oz, uncalled for. Please be polite. Gus is a good guy and generously posting information about GHI stuff which is pretty cool.

[Omar (OZ)]

Oz, uncalled for. Please be polite. Gus is a good guy and generously posting information about GHI stuff which is pretty cool.

I was joking about the netduino being better, I really don't have enough experience to be the judge of that. As far as the hardware wars, they are going back and forth. It's some friendly hardware competitiveness.