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Is my Mini dead?


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#1 Thor

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:54 PM

Ok so I've been doing work on my Tron Disc Mod here (links to all important pages about it). My problem is, after I posted the first video, I went to making some more modifications to it, and in the process, somehow made the Mini unresponsive to my programming. I use the FTDI Basic board to communicate with the Mini. What I mean by it being unresponsive is that the TX light on the board flashes, but the RX light does not. So that tells me my system is trying to send commands, but the Mini isn't responding. What I think killed it was an incorrect measurement of current I did at one point. Basically, rather than putting the multimeter in line like you're supposed to do to measure current, I put it in parallel, shorting the circuit. That was stupid of me because I've measured current before, it's just been a while since the last time I did it (10+ years). I can't remember where I made that measurement, I just remember trying to make it.

Now here's the thing, I ordered a new Mini thinking that it was the problem, but the new mini reacts the same way, so either the new mini is DOA out of the box, or the FTDI Basic board isn't working properly. Any opinions?

#2 Chris Walker

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 06:02 AM

Hi Thor, My best guess would be that the FTDI adapter is malfunctioning. We test every Netduino Mini before it ships to the reseller, so it's very unlikely that it would be damaged upon receipt. Do you have anything hooked up in your circuit _other_ than the FTDI basic board (TX/RX and GND) and power? Also, which port are you using (RS232 or TTL) for debugging? If you hook up to it via HyperTerminal (115200,N,8,1) and power up the Netduino Mini, do you see anything? Chris

#3 Thor

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 11:19 AM

Hi Thor,

My best guess would be that the FTDI adapter is malfunctioning. We test every Netduino Mini before it ships to the reseller, so it's very unlikely that it would be damaged upon receipt.

Do you have anything hooked up in your circuit _other_ than the FTDI basic board (TX/RX and GND) and power?

Also, which port are you using (RS232 or TTL) for debugging? If you hook up to it via HyperTerminal (115200,N,8,1) and power up the Netduino Mini, do you see anything?

Chris


The FTDI Basic uses pins 11 and 12, so TTL. Aside from that it's hooked up to GND (pin 4) and DTS (pin 3), exactly how I've always hooked it up. Main power for the Mini is going to pin 21 providing 5V from a Breadboard power supply (also from Sparkfun). Main ground is hooked up to pin 23.

The only thing I had hooked up was a basic test of a blinking LED that I had written the first time I got my Mini. That was connected on Pin 9, just as it was the first time I tested the mini.

How would I go about hooking it up to connect to Hyperterminal (Putty in my case as I'm running Windows 7)? Can I do something with a USB cable's wires (I'm guessing it's not as simple as just hooking up the data wires) or do I need a regular serial cable? The latter would be a problem as I don't have a serial cable or a serial port exposed on my motherboard (internally or externally). This is the reason why I got the FTDI board in the first place.

#4 Fred

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:20 PM

To use putty, just connect via the USB serial port that your FTDI cable driver provides. This should be in the same way as when you first connected yoru Mini and selected which port to use to deploy. See the "Switching serial deployment port" section in the getting started guide here.

#5 Thor

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 01:02 PM

To use putty, just connect via the USB serial port that your FTDI cable driver provides. This should be in the same way as when you first connected yoru Mini and selected which port to use to deploy. See the "Switching serial deployment port" section in the getting started guide here.


That's the thing...we're trying to rule out that the Mini is the cause, so I need to connect directly to it to eliminate it from being the issue here. We suspect the FTDI board is at fault here, so establishing that I can communicate with the Mini without the FTDI is all I need to place the blame squarely on the FTDI board. I don't have a FTDI cable...only the FTDI board. That's all I've ever had to connect to the Mini. I need someone to tell me how to connect to it without using the FTDI board.

#6 Fred

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 01:38 PM

You'll need something to connect your Mini and PC in place of the FTDI board. You options are:
- Another FTDI board (or equivalent USB to Serial TTL convertor).
- A USB to RS232 serial convertor to connect via pins 1-4.

If you're going to get something I'd recommend the RS232. It'll give you another option for connecting and may be useful if you want to debug any program that uses the serial TTL (e.g. to connect to a serial LCD).



The other option is to check out the FTDI board without the Mini.
Have you got any other serial TTL devices? You could connect the FTDI board to that and see if it works. Also, connecting TX and RX together should give you an echo of your typing in Putty. Connecting an LED on the TX line should give you a rough idea if data is being sent by the FTDI. You can't exactly analyse the serial signal, but can at least see some flickering. (By LED I mean including the usual transistor and resitor combo of course.)

#7 Chris Walker

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 04:01 PM

Hi Thor, Try this: 1. Don't power up your Netduino Mini yet. 2. Remove whatever is plugged into pin 3. Wire pin 3 to GND instead. 3. Keep everything else wired up like it's wired up now. 4. Start up Putty with the FTDI board selected as its serial port (115200,N,8,1) 5. Power up the Netduino Mini 6. Do you get any data (and does the FTDI board show any data being transmitted from the Netduino Mini to your PC)? - if so, does it end with .NET MF booting (or are there any "TinyBooter" messages in there)? - if not, press ESC. Do you get any data then? If you still don't get any data, you can use a logic analyzer to verify that data is coming from the Mini's TTL serial port. Or try another USB-TTL adapter. We're here to help you get back up and running. Must...get...Tron...disc...working...again :) Chris

#8 Thor

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 06:33 PM

I appreciate the enthusiasm Chris :)

Following your steps Chris, I got nothing from the Mini. Nothing after powering it up and nothing after hitting escape. The FTDI board lights it's transmit light, but nothing returns.

I tried using Fred's tip on getting an echo back in Putty when linking the TX to the RX. It does trigger both LEDs when typing something, but I get no echo within Putty. If what you said is true Fred, doesn't this mean data is indeed being transmitted by the FTDI, and it's being received, but not transmitted back to the computer.

Don't have a logic analyzer...my resources are pretty slim. All I have for testing electronics is this multimeter. I'm pretty short on funds until the 15th. I can afford to get one cable or board to try to get this thing working so long as it's under $20. So should I get a FTDI cable, USB to RS232, or another FTDI board? It sounds like that's that only thing that will get this working again, if the mini is still good.

edit: Actually wait...if I can find it I think I have a USB to Serial adapter, I would just need to disassemble the Serial end to get the wires I need.

Edit 2: Yep I found it. Haven't opened it up, but it looks like what I'll need to connect to the RS232 pins..
It's one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/...9-/400071303835

Will be a little tricky getting the wires I need, as the Serial connection looks like it's surface mounted.

#9 Chris Walker

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 06:40 PM

edit: Actually wait...if I can find it I think I have a USB to Serial adapter, I would just need to disassemble the Serial end to get the wires I need.


Hi Thor,

If you connect the TX and RX pins together at the end of the FTDI breakout board and don't get an "echo" back of what you type in Putty, that almost surely means that your FTDI breakout board is not working.

Yes, if you have a USB to serial adapter...plug in a serial cable and cut off the other end of the cable. Wire up the RX and TX and GND pins directly to pins 1/2/4. You should be up and running right away.

If you want to use USB-TTL, I'd recommend this cable.

Chris

#10 Thor

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 07:06 PM

Hi Thor,

If you connect the TX and RX pins together at the end of the FTDI breakout board and don't get an "echo" back of what you type in Putty, that almost surely means that your FTDI breakout board is not working.

Yes, if you have a USB to serial adapter...plug in a serial cable and cut off the other end of the cable. Wire up the RX and TX and GND pins directly to pins 1/2/4. You should be up and running right away.

If you want to use USB-TTL, I'd recommend this cable.

Chris


Yeah I don't have any serial cables, haven't had any for a while. I was lucky to find this one, I figured I threw it out long ago.

I'm piggy backing some wires on the connections on the pcb for the adapter (you'll like it when you see it I think). Just need to finish installing the drivers for the adapter (luckily found them on Belkin's site) and I should be good to go.

Sigh. I need to put it on a 32 bit system. The drivers are only available for 32 bit systems. I didn't notice this when I first downloaded them. I might be able to get it working in a VM though on my VirtualBox installation. If not I'll have to put it on my laptop. I'd prefer the VM though since I'm using my laptop as an HTPC at this point (it's an old beast Dell XPS system, not exactly portable).

#11 Thor

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 08:35 PM

Ok, I got the driver installed on a VM and successfully made a connection to the adapter through the VM...so it recognizes it as COM3. But when I try the same steps as above...I still get nothing except for the blinking of the activity light on the serial adapter. Nothing in Putty when the Mini is powered on and nothing when I hit Escape in Putty. Edit: perhaps I should go over what I do to setup a Putty connection. I immediately change to Serial mode. Change it to COM3 and the speed to 115200. Then I selection Serial under Connection on the left. I double check the COM port and speed again. Data bits is set to 8, stop bits to 1, parity to none, flow control to none. Sound right? And just to try something different, I eliminated the power supply as an issue. I hooked it up to the same power supply I used when I originally developed it...a molex connector coming from one of my PC's. So 12V straight into Pin 24 of the mini. To check to see if the Mini was working correctly for one of the most basic functions, I measured a clean 5V coming from Pin 21. The pins I'm using for the wires to the Mini from the serial adapter are pins 2(RX), 3(TX), and 5(Signal GND) on the serial connection. TX hooked up to pin 1, RX hooked up to pin 2, and GND hooked up to pin 4.

#12 Chris Walker

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 10:27 PM

Thor--this is on the _new_ Mini, correct? Also, if you hook pins 2+3 og the serial adapter together do you get characters echoed back (loopback)? Chris

#13 Thor

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:09 AM

Thor--this is on the _new_ Mini, correct?

Also, if you hook pins 2+3 og the serial adapter together do you get characters echoed back (loopback)?

Chris


Yes , I haven't even touched the old mini since it stopped responding. It is still soldered in the pcb I put it in.

Actually no it doesn't echo back the characters...it should though, as far as I know the device is working perfectly. Is there something possibly in the configuration in Putty that is stopping the Echo from returning? Or perhaps I'm just not recognizing it as an echo. I expected that when I type something in, either it immediately doubles that character or it waits until after I hit enter to echo it on the next line. Problem is, it never leaves the first line. If I hit enter it just goes back to the start of the line. all characters remain and any I type just replace the character that was there before it.

So it's actually acting exactly how the FTDI acted when doing that test.

I posted a couple of pictures from the setup of the adapter with the wires.
https://picasaweb.go...feat=directlink
(and no the wires are not pinched...it's closed just tight enough for them to stay put, but it doesn't impact the insulation at all.)

edit: ok I think I understand it now. I disabled local echo in the Putty client which should mean anything I type should not show up in the window. so when it's hooked up for a loopback, I still see the characters I'm typing, which are actually the echo. When I moved the transmit wire to another spot so they aren't in loopback...I get nothing int he putty window.

And by using the same test with the FTDI...I get echo back.

sooooo...it appears the mini is still completely nonresponsive, despite confirming that the serial adapter is sending and receiving commands.

#14 Chris Walker

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:24 AM

Thor, Okay, it looks like your RS232 connection is working. Have you tried swapping the RX and TX wires on the Mini (to make sure that the computer's RX is going to the Mini's TX)? It might be easiest to run through this in Chat. Would that work well for you? What time(s) are best for you? Chris

#15 Thor

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:43 PM

Nah I never tried that...and here's the result:

ÿ.NetMF v4.1...
er version 400771

TinyCLR (Build 4.1.2821.0)

Starting...
er version 400771

TinyCLR (Build 4.1.2821.0)

Starting...
Created EE.
Started Hardware.
MSdbgV1qTįÁêMSdbgV1¢Ã¯ÁêMSdbgV1
·¹Ë¯ÁêMSdbgV1
TO̯ÁêMSdbgV1ýÛ¯ÁêMSdbgV1yܯÁêMSdbgV1;bÔ¯ÁêMSdbgV1ØÓ¯ÁêMSdbgV10iãû¯êMSdbgV16ü¯Áë êMSdbgV1<¯ô¯Áë
êMSdbgV1:Løó¯Áë
êMSdbgV1(å8ä¯Áë
êMSdbgV1$#Õë¯ÁêMSdbgV1"À#ì¯ÁêMSdbgV1`A:»¯ÁêMSdbgV1f¢Ì¼¯ÁêMSdbgV1l×´¯ÁêMSdbgV1jd!³¯ÁêMSdbgV1xÍ᤯ÁêNo debugger!
Create TS.
Loading start at 1360dc, end 14824c
Attaching file.
Assembly: mscorlib (4.1.2821.0) (3880 RAM - 33236 ROM - 19134 METADATA)

Attaching file.
Assembly: Microsoft.SPOT.Native (4.1.2821.0) (1144 RAM - 6516 ROM - 4479 METADATA)

Attaching file.
Assembly: Microsoft.SPOT.Hardware (4.1.2821.0) (1752 RAM - 11440 ROM - 7371 METADATA)

Attaching file.
Assembly: Microsoft.SPOT.Hardware.SerialPort (4.1.2821.0) (508 RAM - 3440 ROM - 1527 METADATA)

Attaching file.
Assembly: Microsoft.SPOT.IO (4.1.2821.0) (740 RAM - 4620 ROM - 2522 METADATA)

Attaching file.
Assembly: System.IO (4.1.2821.0) (1548 RAM - 13292 ROM - 5862 METADATA)

Attaching file.
Assembly: SecretLabs.NETMF.Hardware (4.1.0.0) (256 RAM - 1108 ROM - 491 METADATA)

Attaching file.
Assembly: SecretLabs.NETMF.Diagnostics (4.1.0.0) (180 RAM - 440 ROM - 166 METADATA)

Loading Deployment Assemblies.
Attaching deployed file.
Assembly: NetduinoMiniTransportSelector (1.0.0.0) (244 RAM - 1168 ROM - 310 METADATA)

Resolving.

Total: (8784 RAM - 75260 ROM - 41862 METADATA)


Total: (8784 RAM - 75260 ROM - 41862 METADATA)

Ready.


LIFE!

Starting to load the files for Visual Studio. Little trickier within the VM.

I can't get it to power off of the Breadboard power supply (which gets its power from USB). I checked the output of the 5V line and it runs around 5.15V, which I suspect is a little too high for the Mini.

I'm in chat now, so I'll keep an eye on it. I'm home sick from work, so I have a bit more time to work on this.

#16 Thor

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 03:11 PM

Ok, good to go. The basic program I first wrote to blink a LED is working, so I should be good to continue my work on the Disc Mod. Thanks for all the help! Edit: Success...the disc is back up and running, so I can proceed with the changes I was working on.

#17 Chris Walker

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 10:40 PM

Ok, good to go. The basic program I first wrote to blink a LED is working, so I should be good to continue my work on the Disc Mod. Thanks for all the help!

Edit: Success...the disc is back up and running, so I can proceed with the changes I was working on.


Awesome. What ended up being the culprit?

#18 Thor

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 11:38 PM

Awesome. What ended up being the culprit?


Switching the TX and the RX wires did it.

Couple of questions...

Any way I can get it to stop flashing all the LEDs on initial startup? The Netduino doesn't make all the i/o ports high or something on initial startup does it? I've tried using a pull-down resistor on the 3 signal lines running to the LED driver but that doesn't work, it seems to send a high signal every time it starts up, which kind of ruins the startup animation.

Also, it seems to be misinterpreting a single momentary switch press as multiple presses. This results in it skipping animations, which is ok for the animation mode, as those are just a bunch of random animations in no particular order, but the movie replica mode (what I'm calling it right now) has a set of 3 animations that are in order, so it skipping animations really screws up that mode.

#19 Troll feeder

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:57 PM

Awesome. What ended up being the culprit?


Chris,

I just wanted to say I'm truly impressed by the effort you put forth to resolve a problem most people/companies would blow off.




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